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1 Archangelus  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:09:29am

The full story is currently at the center of Israel's media coverage in Hebrew at the moment (This is the only report in English as of yet - normally i'd translate in full from another source, but haven't the time), and the full details come off as far more gruesome and terrifying than what's being conveyed here. This woman was terrified for her very life.

I've seen plenty of arguments regarding previous events tying to the religious-based conflicts that have occurred between the Secular and the Orthodox populaces in Israel. But in this specific case, there's no room for interpretation as far as i'm concerned; What this group of "people" have done here is no different than what Hamas and Islamic Jihad Palestinians have done over the years. This, ladies and gentlemen, is a textbook definition of an act of terror. No more, no less - and the former should be arrested, tried and sentenced precisely as the latter have been.

2 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:18:39am

The world appears to be slowly descending into utterly delusional, foaming-at-the-mouth madness. Religious extremism is on the rise, blatant racism & bigotry is no longer deemed shameful, far-right neo-fascist demagogues are resurgent and seen as viable political candidates on both sides of the Atlantic, climate change is at the bottom of people's list of priorities...the list goes on and on. WTF?

3 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:50:06am

Religion knows its time is coming up. Everywhere it's acting out.

4 kreyagg  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:08:42am

It amazes me that religious moderates scratch their heads and wonder how the extremists can do these things, then completely ignore the fact the all the extremists are doing is following the instructions in the book that they all share.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:29:09am

re: #4 kreyagg

It amazes me that religious moderates scratch their heads and wonder how the extremists can do these things, then completely ignore the fact the all the extremists are doing is following the instructions in the book that they all share.

Let me see if I can explain it to you. "The book we all share", in the Jewish context, is not a translated Bible that tradition says anyone can interpret 'literally' and then act on. It is an extended, highly sophisticated, complex legalistic system, learned only through years of intensive work, and interpreted by custom, tradition, and experts in the field.

It also has a remarkably good track record in creating traditional communities in which the law was interpreted without fear or favor, and women were not stoned on the streets.

So, thanks for your "hyuck, hyuck, it says to stone women who are putting up flyers in the Bible" routine, but first, it doesn't, and secondly, if it did, that still wouldn't free these guys up to do it randomly and of their own volition.

So the religious 'moderates' are shocked because the extremists are breaking laws that have governed our faith for a few thousand years. Sorry. Clearly, we should have expected it, and gotten rid of the book.

6 kreyagg  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:48:08am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

I am fairly certain that if you ask these people why they attacked this woman, they will be able to point to the exact passages in your special book that call for it.

7 Bob Levin  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 11:19:04am

re: #6 kreyagg

So? They can read but they can't understand. That's the problem. That's their problem. They can't understand. And that cascades and descends into crime, and touches on barbarity.

8 Bob Levin  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 11:21:53am

re: #6 kreyagg

Didn't you read comment 5? There are no "passages in [our] special book that call for this.

9 JEA62  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 11:28:05am

re: #8 Bob Levin

There are in their sick minds. Religious extremism always finds justification for despicable acts in their particular holy book.

10 dallasdoc  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 11:29:08am

Response to poster:

"In my humble opinion, had the police not arrived (late) to the scene, it might well have ended as the Ramallah Lynchings of 2000."

As despicable as this incident is, how dare you compare this to the Ramallah lynchings. How many Israelis have the Haredi actually killed? uhh... let me check.... hmmm...none. there is no record of any actual killing by this group.

not to minimize the wrongness of their behavior, nor the minimize the fear and terror that this woman must have felt....

But please do not compare Palestinian deliberate murder with the Haredi riot. They are not the same. the response need not be the same. And for the record, the response has not been the same. Jews from all camps have come out against this behavior, the Palestinians exhalt such behavior and name streets after their terrorist heroes. no one will ever suggest naming streets or school after these criminals.

Response to #6. please feel free to be "fairly certain" but you must recognize that your fairly certainess reflects more on your personal prejudices, than it does on any objective reality.

For the record, we religious 'moderates' are even more appalled by this behavior than you could ever be.

11 kreyagg  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 11:45:13am

re: #8 Bob Levin

Didn't you read comment 5? There are no "passages in [our] special book that call for this.

I am not the person you need to convince, it is these Haredim.
I am assuming that they some basis for expecting women to be basically invisible.

12 researchok  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 12:02:56pm

re: #3 SpaceJesus

Religion knows its time is coming up. Everywhere it's acting out.

You have no idea how much I wanted your remarks to be cynical or sarcastic.

13 Bob Levin  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 12:04:12pm

re: #11 kreyagg

I know who needs convincing. Really. I try. There is no basis for expecting women to be invisible. This is weird to say the least. This behavior is going to stop, I'm sure of this.

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 12:08:06pm

re: #11 kreyagg

I am not the person you need to convince, it is these Haredim.
I am assuming that they some basis for expecting women to be basically invisible.

If I had to guess, I would say they're probably relying on some local decision by a rabbi they deem authoritative.

15 Genshed  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 12:29:42pm

I try to be fair-minded, but when the question "why are you hurting that person?" is answered with "God (as I understand it) wants me to", it makes me want to say "hasa diga eebowai".

Really, I have no issue with God myself, but some of His fan clubs are really disturbing.

16 Bob Levin  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 1:08:48pm

re: #9 JEA62

Then one would have to address the sickness, not the book. That ain't easy.

17 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 1:48:41pm

re: #10 dallasdoc

If that rock had cracked her skull, she would have died.

This easily could have wound up as murder.

18 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:09:58pm

re: #17 Obdicut

This is getting ridiculous. It's time that the little perks the Haredim have to be taken away.

19 dallasdoc  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:19:08pm

re 17 obdicut.

yes. you are correct... so....

that is why rioting needs to be condemned and the police have be involved and the perps caught and prosecuted....

it does not make it the same as a deliberate lynching, bombing

20 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:29:05pm

re: #19 dallasdoc

What wasn't deliberate about this? Why did they even attack the woman?

21 Archangelus  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:30:59pm

re: #10 dallasdoc

how dare you compare this to the Ramallah lynchings.

Be advised, this is a bit long:

Firstly, allow me to quote the both the woman in question:
"..All I could think was of the lynching, I genuinly felt that the same would happen to me, that I was moments from death.."
And her brother, who was listening to her on the phone while part of it happened:
"..I heard the screaming and the shattering…They were cold tempered and violent. We are simply dealing with killers here. When I saw the vehicle, the first thing that came to mind was the lynch in Ramallah. I don’t have any doubts whatsoever that if they (the police) hadn't arrived when they did, it would have ended in murder.”

In retrospect, I probably should have clarified that I was originally agreeing with their sentiments when I wrote this, but like I pointed out earlier – I was in a hurry and didn’t have time to translate any of the full texts and/or interviews.

Allow me to be clear here: I am not comparing all Haredim with Palestinians certainly not with the Palestinian terrorists. I was, and will, compare vicious elements within one group with vicious members of another group, and certainly have no problem comparing monstrous animals who chased, caught and tore people to shreds (whose remains I actually had the misfortune of witnessing firsthand when serving in the IDF at that time) with equally detestable animals who chased the woman, screeching and attacking her all the way, destroyed the car she was hiding in while trying to reach and hurt her inside, and then continued to pursue her when she escaped, fleeing for her very life.
Have you ever been hit by stones? I have - by both groups. And thankfully not on my head. This woman could very easily have been killed by this mob. They certainly were giving it their all.

Lastly, cause I simply have to respond to this:

" uhh... let me check... hmmm...none. there is no record of any actual killing by this group.”

Utter. BS. Haredim have been charged and found guilty of murder just as in any other sect in Israel. Examples: July 2011 Haredi murder and suicide; Haredi parent abused, killed baby daughter in 2010; Haredi murder of diamond dealer in December 2010; and the August 2011 stabbing of Rabbi Abuhatzira by one of his own followers (apparently he gave him some really bad advice). And in case you're wondering, these were simply easy to remember due to making major headlines in Israel at the time.

22 RadicalModerate  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:32:57pm

re: #19 dallasdoc

re 17 obdicut.

yes. you are correct... so...

that is why rioting needs to be condemned and the police have be involved and the perps caught and prosecuted...

it does not make it the same as a deliberate lynching, bombing

They were throwing BLEACH at her. This puts them on the same page as the Taliban members in Afghanistan who attack women with acid. It is an act specifically intended to injure and disfigure.

23 Archangelus  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:35:37pm

re: #19 dallasdoc

it does not make it the same as a deliberate lynching, bombing

1) How, pray tell, was any of what this group did NOT deliberate? They randomly and unintentionally ran after her and attacked her? Threw bleach at her - what, they thought it was just water?

2) Where the HELL did you get "bombing" from?? Don't imply/put words in my text where they were never there to begin with!

24 dallasdoc  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:54:08pm

I seem to have stirred the hornets' nest.

re #21 you are absolutely correct but missed what i unclearly was trying to say. what i meant was there were no killings by Haredi for political purposes. your examples were examples of criminally motivated killings not politically motivated ones. I am unaware of any politically motivated killings by Haredi groups. In Israel, if memory serves, there have been only two politically motivated killings, both by individuals on the right killing someone on the left.

#19. i am not questioning the deliberateness of the attack, nor the viciousness. While the level of the violence could have lead to murder, it was not designed to murder, just to terrorize. Had they really set out to kill the woman a group of that size would have no trouble.

Please, please,please, I am not trying to excuse the inexcusable. But i object to the equating of a violent mob, with Palestinian terrorists armed with guns and bombs and rocket propelled grenades. And however unpleasant bleach is, especially to the eyes, Bleach is not acid

25 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:05:07pm

re: #24 dallasdoc

And however unpleasant bleach is, especially to the eyes, Bleach is not acid

Bleach burn #1

Bleach Burn #2

Source: The Effects of Bleach on Skin

I can only imagine what bleach could do to the eyes if they weren't immediately flushed and treated at a hospital, not to mention what it could do to internal organs if it was swallowed or inhaled.


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